Dr. Jeff Masters' WunderBlog

A cautionary tale--the PETM
Posted by: Dr. Jeff Masters, 1:53 PM GMT en Abril 29, 2009 +5
One frequently hears comments like, "Earth has had many periods of warmth far exceeding the warmth of today's climate, so we should not be surprised if the current warming of the globe is a natural phenomena". This view is especially prevalent among geologists, who take a very long view of history and are among the most skeptical scientists regarding the reality of human-caused climate change. It is true that Earth's past has had many episodes of natural global warming that we can learn from. But the greatest natural global warming episode of the past 65 million years, the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM) event of 55 million years ago, presents us with a cautionary tale of how massive releases of greenhouse gases--similar in scale to what humans are now producing--may cause extreme warming of the climate.

Earth's orbital variations--the most common form of natural global warming
The most common cause of natural global warming over time has been changes in Earth's orbit. Three oscillations in Earth's orbit with periods of 26,000, 41,000, and 100,000 years (called Milankovitch cycles) cause ice ages to be triggered when summer sunshine at 65°N reaches a minimum. The reduced sunlight over Canada, Siberia, and Scandinavia allows winter snowfall to persist through the summer, and thus accumulate and build Northern Hemisphere ice sheets. There isn't enough land in the Southern Hemisphere to allow large, land-based ice sheets to build there, so it is the growth and decay of Northern Hemisphere ice sheets that has controlled the timing of ice ages and warm inter-glacial periods over the past three million years. Earth's orbit is currently in a phase where the amount of sunlight falling at 65°N is changing very little. Thus, the primary mechanism for past natural global warming events is not to blame for the current warming. According to the "official" word on climate, the 2007 report of the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the amount of sunlight falling at 65°N is expected to change little over the next 30,000 years, and "it is very unlikely that the Earth would naturally enter into another ice age for at least 30,000 years".

Pumping huge amounts of carbon into the atmosphere coincided with extreme climate warming during the PETM
Natural global warming has also occurred in the past due to changes in solar brightness, and natural emissions of natural carbon dioxide (CO2) and methane (methane is the primary component of the natural gas we use to heat our homes, is a potent greenhouse gas 20 - 25 more effective at heating the Earth than than CO2, with a lifetime of about 9 years in the atmosphere before reacting with the OH radical to form CO2). I discussed one example of natural global warming in my previous post--volcanoes have emitted enough CO2 over time to account for a large portion of Earth's natural greenhouse effect. However, volcanoes only put about 1 - 3% as much CO2 per year into the atmosphere as human activities do. What, then, does Earth's past tell us about what might happen if we dump 100 times more carbon than volcanoes do into the atmosphere, over a period of a few centuries?

The end of Earth's Paleocene era, 55 million years ago, was a time of great warmth on planet Earth. Subtropical vegetation grew in Greenland and Patagonia, and crocodiles swam off the coast of Greenland. Sea surface temperatures at the North Pole were a toasty 64°F (18°C). Tropical palm forests in northern Wyoming played host to early primates. Despite the fact that the sun put out 0.5% less energy than today (equivalent to a global temperature that would be 0.5°C cooler), there was no polar ice cap or Greenland Ice Sheet. The higher temperatures of that era were probably due to high carbon dioxide levels of 560 - 600 ppm. This is far higher than the 280 ppm seen in the 1800s, and the 383 ppm as of 2009. The continents had a different configuration due to continental drift, and this may have kept the world warmer as well.


Figure 1. Global temperature change (right scale) as inferred from oxygen-18 isotope measurements (left scale) from fossil ocean microorganisms (Zachos et al., 2001). Oxygen-18 levels in these fossils are proportional to the temperatures of the era when the fossils were formed. The Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum (labeled PETM) shows a sharp upward spike in temperatures occurred. This spike is likely to be understated by a factor of 2 - 4 due to coarse sampling and averaging in this data set. For more detail, see the Wikipedia entry for the PETM.

Then, 55 million years ago, the fossil record shows that an extraordinary drop in the ratio of carbon-13 to carbon-12 occurred, indicating that a massive amount of "light" carbon with low levels of the carbon-13 isotope was emitted into the atmosphere in a very short amount of time--just 500 - 20,000 years. The most likely source of carbon-13 depleted carbon would have been methane from ocean sediments or land vegetation. If it was methane, about 1,000 - 2,000 gigatons of carbon would have had to be injected into the atmosphere, in order to account for the observed fossil deposits. For comparison, the total amount of carbon in today's atmosphere, primarily as CO2, is a factor of two or three less--about 810 gigatons. The fossil record shows that extreme climatic warming occurred nearly simultaneously with this massive release of carbon into the atmosphere. Global average temperatures rose 9°F (5°C) in a geological instant--1,000 - 10,000 years (Sluijs et al., 2007). Average sea surface temperatures at the North Pole reached 74°F (23°C). The warmth lasted 120,000 - 220,000 years before weathering of silicate rocks was able to remove the CO2 from the atmosphere and return the climate to its former state. This was the largest global warming event since the time of the dinosaurs, 65 million year ago (Moran et al., 2006). The resulting impact on Earth's climate was so severe that a new geological era was born--the Eocene. The warming event has been dubbed the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM), since it occurred at the boundary of these two eras. Ocean circulation patterns changed radically during the first 5,000 years of the PETM (Nunes and Norris, 2006), and the deep oceans became 11°F (6°C) warmer, severely depleted in oxygen, and more acidic. A mass extinction of deep ocean microorganisms resulted, though the exact reasons remain unclear. The PETM did not cause mass extinctions on land of plants and animals, but a major turnover in mammalian life occurred at that time. Many of today's major mammalian orders emerged in the wake of the PETM. The new geological era it ushered in, the Eocene, is named for the Greek goddess of the dawn (Eos), since this was the dawn of the era of large mammals.

It is extremely difficult to explain the warmth of the PETM without assuming that the huge amount of "light" carbon pumped into the atmosphere created intense warming due to the greenhouse effect. The controversial question is, how did this carbon get into the atmosphere? Did PETM happen because of the greenhouse effect from all the carbon added to the atmosphere, or did the carbon get released into the atmosphere in response to climatic warming from another cause (and boosting the warming that was already occurring?) The mystery is a difficult one to unravel, since our vision of what happened so long ago is very fuzzy. A recent high-resolution study of ocean sediments laid down in New Jersey during the PETM (Sluijs et al., 2007) argued that about half of the PETM warming occurred 1,000 - 1,500 years before the 1,000 - 2,000 gigatons of "light" carbon got injected into the atmosphere. The authors theorize that global warming due to some other cause heated up the deep oceans enough to release methane stored in the form of methane hydrate, a form of methane 'ice' that forms in cold bottom water under great pressures and is widely distributed and plentiful in sediments on the outer edges of continental margins. The methane released was the huge pulse of "light" carbon seen in the fossil record, and this methane warmed the planet even further via the greenhouse effect. The authors argued that the warming that triggered the PETM could have been due to a variation in Earth's orbit, or due to a pulse of greenhouse gases that didn't happen to be enriched in light carbon. A wide variety of other theories abound. Dickens (2004) theorizes that a volcano in the North Atlantic erupted through a huge fossil fuel deposit in overlying ocean sediments, releasing massive amounts of the stored carbon into the atmosphere. Pancost et al. 2006 found evidence that the warming of the PETM significantly increased as carbon stored on land in wetlands was released in the form of methane. Huber (2008) argued that temperatures got so hot during the PETM that a huge die-off of tropical vegetation resulted, creating vast deserts and putting thousands of gigatons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, further increasing temperatures.


Figure 2. Photographs of methane hydrate as nodules, veins, and laminae in sediment. Intense warming of the deep oceans during the PETM may have released huge quantities of methane gas from ocean sediments with methane hydrates in them. Image credit: United States Geological Survey.

Computer climate models fail to reproduce the PETM
A big concern about the climate models that we are using to forecast climate for the coming century is that they do a poor job of reproducing the climate of the Eocene, and, in particular, the PETM. These models fail to reproduce the high temperatures observed in the polar regions relative to the tropics during the PETM. However, in the words of climate scientists Daniel Schrag and Richard Alley in a 2004 article in Nature, "It would be a grave mistake to take these lessons from ancient climates as a reason to disregard the projections from climate models." If the observations of the climate in this far-ago era are correct, the reason that the climate models fail to correctly simulate this past climate is because the climate is more sensitive to CO2 than believed. There is a missing "feedback" causing increased warming near the pole that the models are missing. Sluijs et al. (2006) theorize that the models may be missing how hurricanes transport heat to the poles, or how polar stratospheric clouds may act to trap heat over the poles. In short, the failure of the models to correctly simulate the PETM may mean that our current estimates of the amount of global warming likely over the coming century (1.1°C - 6.4°C) are far too low. The other possibility, mentioned by Huber (2008) is that the models are correct, but the temperatures inferred for the tropics from the fossil record are in error. This wouldn't be the first time that measurements were found to be in error and the models vindicated.

Comparison with today
Since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, humans have pumped about 500 gigatons of carbon into the atmosphere. There are about 5,000 gigatons in the planet's coal reserves, while oil and traditional natural gas deposits are hundreds of gigatons each (Rogner, 1997). Given that humans are now adding about 10 gigatons of carbon to the atmosphere each year (Global Carbon Project, 2007), we will surpass the 1,000 gigaton mark 50 years from now at current emission rates. This is at the lower end of the 1,000 - 2,000 gigatons of carbon that are estimated to have been added to the atmosphere during the PETM--the most extreme natural global warming event of the past 65 million years. Though our view of events so long ago is very fuzzy, the PETM should serve as a cautionary tale. We cannot rule out the possibility that continuation of our current rates of fossil fuel burning will lead to an extreme climatic warming event like the PETM. In particular, we need to keep a careful eye on the huge reservoirs of methane hydrate stored in marine sediments (500 - 10,000 gigatons of carbon) and stored in permafrost (7.5 - 400 gigatons). Continued warming of the planet could trigger substantial releases of these massive reservoirs of greenhouse gases, leading to a repeat of the PETM event. However, a 2008 study by the U.S. Climate Change Science Program (CCSP, 2008) concludes that there is currently no evidence that a sudden catastrophic release of methane stored in ocean sediments or in permafrost will happen over the next century. It should take at least a century for global warming to penetrate the deep oceans and permafrost regions containing these significant reservoirs of methane hydrates. The study concludes, "Catastrophic release of methane to the atmosphere appears very unlikely in the near term (e.g., this century)...Although the prospect of a catastrophic release of methane to the atmosphere as a result of anthropogenic climate change over the next century appears very unlikely based on current knowledge, many of the processes involved are still poorly understood, and developing a better predictive capability requires further work. On a longer time scale, methane release from hydrate reservoir is likely to be a major influence in global warming over the next 1,000 to 100,000 years". So, the bottom line is: don't expect global warming to be able to cause huge releases of methane hydrates in the coming century, such as may have occurred during PETM. But it is wise to ponder that a release of greenhouse gases similar in magnitude to what we are doing now coincided with the most extreme global warming event of the last 65 million years. We should not be surprised if our human greenhouse gas emissions cause a similar massive climate perturbation over the next 1,000 years, leading the dawn of a new geological era--the Anthropocene.

For more information
The best resource I found while researching this was a December 2008 report from the U.S. Climate Change Science Program (CCSP), titled, Abrupt Climate Change. Chapter 5, "Potential for Abrupt Changes in Atmospheric Methane" [1.3 Mb] was the relevant chapter.

References
Archer, D., 2007, "Methane hydrate stability and anthropogenic climate change", Biogeosciences, 4, 521544,.

Dickens, G.R., 2004, "Hydrocarbon-driven warming", Nature 42, 429, pp513-515, 3 June 2004.

Huber, M., 2008, "A Hotter Greenhouse?", Science 321, no. 5887, pp. 353-354, DOI: 10.1126/science.1161170

Moran, et al., 2006, "The Cenozoic palaeoenvironment of the Arctic Ocean", Nature 441, 601-605 (1 June 2006) | doi:10.1038/nature04800.

Nunes, F. and R.D. Norris, 2006, "Abrupt reversal in ocean overturning during the Paleocene/Eocene warm period", Nature 439 (7072): 603. doi:10.1038/nature04386

Pancost, R.D., et al., 2006, "Increased terrestrial methane cycling at the Palaeocene-Eocene thermal maximum", Nature 449, 332-335 (20 September 2007) | doi:10.1038/nature06012

Rogner, H.-H, 1997, "An assessment of world hydrocarbon resources", Annu. Rev. Energy Environ., 22, 217-262.

Sluijs, A., et al., 2006, "Subtropical Arctic Ocean temperatures during the Palaeocene/Eocene thermal maximum", Nature 441, 610-613 (1 June 2006) | doi:10.1038/nature04668

U.S. Climate Change Science Program (CCSP), 2008: Abrupt Climate Change. A report by the U.S. Climate Change Science Program and the Subcommittee on Global Change Research [Clark, P.U., A.J. Weaver (coordinating lead authors), E. Brook, E.R. Cook, T.L. Delworth, and K. Steffen (chapter lead authors)]. U.S. Geological Survey, Reston, VA, 459 pp.

Zachos, J. C., U. Rohl, S.A. Schellenberg, A. Sluijs, D.A. Hodell, D.C. Kelly, E. Thomas, M. Nicolo, I. Raffi, L.J. Lourens, H. McCarren, and D. Kroon, 2005, "Rapid Acidification of the Ocean During the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum", Science, 308, 1611-1615

Portlight.org relief walk in Destin, FL a big success
Over the weekend, the portlight.org disaster relief charity ran a highly successful relief walk in Destin, FL, to raise money for the disaster relief. The theme of this walk was to raise relief money not only for people, but for pets as well, with 25% of the money raised intended for taking care of pets injured or abandoned during disasters. As detailed in the portlight.org blog, the pet theme was a great way to raise money, and about $5000 was raised. The other relief walks this year raised $1500 in New Orleans and $542 in Kissimmee. Many more walks are planned this year, with the next one being this weekend (May 2) in Summerville, SC. Portlight also helped out with disaster relief operations for the South Carolina fires yesterday.



Jeff Masters
Categories: Climate Change
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701. emguy 7:49 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Governor Charlie Crist has had a press conference to announce the first two (2) confirmed cases of Swine Flu in Florida. LINK
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702. presslord 7:57 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Greetings and salutations, fellow weather groupies!!!!!!!!!!
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703. hahaguy 8:01 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Hey press.
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704. presslord 8:02 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
So.....

Where's it gonna hit?
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705. hahaguy 8:08 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Kansas lol
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706. presslord 8:10 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
...cool...
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707. nrtiwlnvragn 8:19 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
NOAA formally announced the retired hurricane names:

Four Hurricane Names Retired From List of Storms
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708. Orcasystems 8:21 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Blog Refresh
Mirror Site

Daily Area of Interest
Click to enlarge

RTLSNK, you are getting your name shown in far to many of these DAI pictures
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709. Ossqss 8:26 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Ok which one of you all did this. Great Graphics - LoL




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710. TXGulfCoast 8:28 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Quoting stillwaiting:
I saw the hubble twice last week and I believe that this mission is going to service it!!!!...and this is the first time they'll have a shuttle on the pad,on stand by in case they have to go up and rescue them because of the concern of spacejunk collision???????


Since the last Shuttle accident, they always have a Shuttle on the second pad in case the crew from the first one needs to be rescued.
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711. presslord 8:29 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Oss....Where'd ya find that?! Great production values....
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712. CybrTeddy 8:31 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Quoting kmanislander:
Good afternoon

Could this be the first sub tropical storm of the season in the making ??



Convection seems to be on the increase.
Its an interesting feature, It might actually be the first Sub-Tropical Storm of the season.

Member Since: Julio 8, 2005 Posts: 255 Comments: 20657
713. Ossqss 8:34 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Quoting presslord:
Oss....Where'd ya find that?! Great production values....


Fell out of a miss typed word. I meant to type weather and typed worser, poof, there it is. I prefer the more than likely and less than likely senario from AccuW. It is easier on the mind :)
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714. Patrap 8:35 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
The reason we have 2 Shuttles on the Pad is because STS-25 is a Hubble Mission. There in a Different orbit inclination than the ISS.
Also a much Higher orbit.
Almost 300 miles.
That's the Highest the Orbiters have ever flown,are the Hubble servicing missions.
There is no safe Haven for the orbiter Atlantis to ISS in a Hubble Orbit.

If they have problems on Orbit. the second Orbiter will be Launch ready,6-7 Days post Atlantis Launch May 11th.
Atlantis cannot make a orbital change to ISS in the Hubble Orbit.

Thats the only reason we have 2 Orbiters on the Pad.

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715. CybrTeddy 9:08 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Quoting Patrap:
The reason we have 2 Shuttles on the Pad is because STS-25 is a Hubble Mission. There in a Different orbit inclination than the ISS.
Also a much Higher orbit.
Almost 300 miles.
That's the Highest the Orbiters have ever flown,are the Hubble servicing missions.
There is no safe Haven for the orbiter Atlantis to ISS in a Hubble Orbit.

If they have problems on Orbit. the second Orbiter will be Launch ready,6-7 Days post Atlantis Launch May 11th.
Atlantis cannot make a orbital change to ISS in the Hubble Orbit.

Thats the only reason we have 2 Orbiters on the Pad.



Just hope that they don't need the LON-400 (the other orbiter on the pad, Endeavour) would surely terminate the space Shuttle Program, although no one would die, Atlantis would burn up in the atmosphere while everyone else is safe inside Endeavour. Can't do ISS missions on only 2 space shuttles. Extremely unlikely to happen.

Ares I-X also, will be an interesting mission to watch. For us Floridians, we get lucky this summer. Less than 2 weeks after Atlantis lands, Endeavour will be rolled to pad A and Launch.
Then in July, NASA's first Ares I launch (this and the Orion will replace the Space Shuttle with manned moon missions in 10 years) goes up on pad B on July 31st followed by a few days later a Space Shuttle launch, STS-128 Discovery on August 6th

Exciting summer, lets hope the '09 Hurricane seasson doesn't mess things up.
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716. HadesGodWyvern 9:14 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Japan Meteorological Agency

Tropical Disturbance Summary (1800z 01MAY)
===========================================
At 3:00 AM JST, A Tropical Depression (1004 hPa) located at 15.0N 138.0E has 10 minute sustained winds of 25 knots. The depression is reported as moving north-northeast slowly

System #2
---------

At 3:00 AM JST, A Tropical Depression (1004 hPa) located at 13.0N 124.0E has 10 minute sustained winds of 25 knots. The depression is reported as almost stationary
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717. HadesGodWyvern 9:15 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Philippines Atmospheric Geophysical Astronomical Services and Administration

Tropical Cyclone Bulletin #2
===========================
Tropical Depression "DANTE" has maintained its strength and remained almost stationary.

At 11:00 PM PhST, Tropical Depression Dante located at 12.7°N 124.2°E or in the vicinity of Sorsogon has 10 minute sustained winds of 30 knots. The depression is reported as almost stationary

Signal Warnings Number One (30-60 kph winds)

Luzon Region
-------------
1.Camarines Norte
2.Camarines Sur
3.Albay
4.Sorsogon
5.Catanduanes
6.Masbate
7.Burias Island
8.Southern Quezon

Visayas Region
------------
1.Northern Samar

Residents living in low lying and mountainous areas under signal # 1 are alerted against possible flashfloods and landslides.

The public and the disaster coordinating councils concerned are advised to take appropriate actions and watch for the next bulletin to be issued at 5 AM tomorrow.
Member Since: Mayo 24, 2006 Posts: 43 Comments: 36948
718. HadesGodWyvern 9:15 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Philippines Atmospheric Geophysical Astronomical Services and Administration

Tropical Cyclone Bulletin #6
===========================
Tropical Depression "CRISING" continues to move away from the country in a westward direction.

At 11:00 PM PhST, Tropical Depression Crising located at 11.0°N 116.8°E or 230 kms northwest of Puerto Princesa has 10 minute sustained winds of 30 knots. The depression is reported as moving westward at 3 knots.

However, Southern Luzon will have occasional rains becoming frequent over the provinces of Quezon, Camarines Sur, Camarines Norte, Catanduanes, Albay, Sorsogon and Palawan which may trigger flashfloods and landslides.

The public and the disaster coordinating councils concerned are advised to take appropriate actions and watch for the next bulletin to be issued at 11 A.M. tomorrow.

Member Since: Mayo 24, 2006 Posts: 43 Comments: 36948
719. Patrap 9:20 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Hurricane Expo offers residents plethora of hurricane-preparedness information

By KATIE TAMMEN, DAILY SUN

THE VILLAGES — A continuous stream of people passed through the doors of Savannah Center on Thursday to soak up a wealth of information during the fourth annual Hurricane Expo.

The three-hour event, sponsored by the District Public Safety Department, featured an array of organizations and vendors with information and products to help residents before, during and after a storm.

“We were just very concerned about the hurricanes,” said Judy Bogan, who will spend her first full hurricane season in The Villages this year. “We just wanted to make sure we’re prepared. I’m glad they offered so many things (at the expo).”

Bogan, who is moving here permanently from Michigan, said she hadn’t really considered all the preparations she needed to make for hurricane season, but said she would start on her plan immediately and encouraged others to do the same.

“Get prepared, know what you need to do and where you’re going to go,” she said. “Once you’re in it, it’s too late to start figuring it out.”

Raymond Varian, who moved to The Villages from Connecticut last summer, attended the event for the first time and said he, too, was impressed with the wide variety of information available.
Member Since: Julio 3, 2005 Posts: 377 Comments: 113014
720. futuremet 9:31 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
After analyzing the 18z (yesterday) through 12z today, it became clear that the GFS is forecasting a quasi-Arthur situation about two weeks from now. Earlier this week, The GFS expected tropical cyclogenesis to occur in the Southwestern Caribbean and subsequently jet northward, as a result of an upper level trough. This scenario has changed; now the GFS expects this system to propagate westward as anticyclogenesis occurs directly north of it about 7 days from now. However, a bulk of moisture will still remain at the SW Caribbean, which will be further catalyzed by positive MJO pulses. In addition to that, vertical wind shear will temporarily be favorable. Thus, this small time frame is worth watching, albeit I highly doubt anything substantial will happen.
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721. JUSTCOASTING 9:35 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
I work for a restoration company can anyone tell me is there a site i can go to that shows the most hail prone areas of the united states
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722. Ossqss 10:26 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Quoting JUSTCOASTING:
I work for a restoration company can anyone tell me is there a site i can go to that shows the most hail prone areas of the united states


Here ya go.

Link
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723. HadesGodWyvern 10:40 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Philippines Atmospheric Geophysical Astronomical Services and Administration

Tropical Cyclone Bulletin #3
===========================
Tropical Depression "DANTE" has slowly moved northeastward as it maintained its strength.

At 5:00 AM PhST, Tropical Depression Dante located at 13.4°N 124.5°E or in the vicinity of Sorsogon has 10 minute sustained winds of 30 knots. The depression is reported as almost stationary

Signal Warnings Number One (30-60 kph winds)

Luzon Region
-------------
1.Camarines Norte
2.Camarines Sur
3.Albay
4.Sorsogon
5.Catanduanes
6.Masbate
7.Burias Island
8.Southern Quezon

Visayas Region
------------
1.Northern Samar

Residents living in low lying and mountainous areas under signal # 1 are alerted against possible flashfloods and landslides.

The public and the disaster coordinating councils concerned are advised to take appropriate actions and watch for the next bulletin to be issued at 11 AM today.
Member Since: Mayo 24, 2006 Posts: 43 Comments: 36948
724. clwstmchasr 10:48 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
I don't put too much faith in a model forecast that is two weeks out, especially on the first day of May.
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725. hurricane23 11:16 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
We'll try again in a few weeks.
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726. CybrTeddy 11:24 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Kman noted this earlier if you recall. Very interesting feature.
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727. hahaguy 11:26 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
It looks interesting cyber. But probably nothing will come out of it.
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728. Cavin Rawlins 11:39 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
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729. Ossqss 11:43 PM GMT en Mayo 01, 2009    
Humm, whats up with that? That was interesting. The image dissappeared


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730. Michfan 12:00 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
And were off! Nice to see the hurricane season starting back up so we can actually talk hurricanes for once.
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731. Stormchaser2007 12:12 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Quoting CybrTeddy:
Kman noted this earlier if you recall. Very interesting feature.


More than likely that nothing amounts from it. Just a surface trough.
Member Since: Junio 9, 2007 Posts: 4 Comments: 15296
732. StormSurgeon 12:12 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Well, after a long winter hibernation I've awakened and decided to make my highly anticipated reappearence..........right. How's everyone doing? I see there's ramping interest in the upcoming season.
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733. Skyepony (Mod) 12:31 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Fresh Quikscat of the central atlantic feature. It's on the bottom left.
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734. StormSurgeon 12:50 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
could be a wave there, but water temps are way too cold for something in the AB to get going. Also, upper level winds are hostile....to say the least. Give it another two months. Look to the W Caribbean and Gulf for early season storms. Nothing there right now though.
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735. KoritheMan 12:58 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Quoting StormSurgeon:
could be a wave there, but water temps are way too cold for something in the AB to get going. Also, upper level winds are hostile....to say the least. Give it another two months. Look to the W Caribbean and Gulf for early season storms. Nothing there right now though.


If you're referring to that feature north of the islands, that is just a surface trough, as was already stated.
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736. Tazmanian 1:01 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
KoritheMan hi IM me thanks
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737. Drakoen 1:05 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Quoting hurricane23:
We'll try again in a few weeks.


Yep. Gotta get model support for early season development.
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738. Ossqss 1:12 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Rookie Question, how accruate are the models?

Just wanderin about the ULL over Mexico when it moves off of land.
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739. hahaguy 1:23 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Quoting Ossqss:
Rookie Question, how accruate are the models?

Just wanderin about the ULL over Mexico when it moves off of land.


It's really give or take. Every year one model is more accurate than the others.
Member Since: Agosto 12, 2007 Posts: 2 Comments: 2838
740. beell 1:30 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Quoting Ossqss:
Rookie Question, how accruate are the models?

Just wanderin about the ULL over Mexico when it moves off of land.


Really not much of an ULL there anymore.
Someone on here sometime way back left a quote about all models being wrong. Some wronger than others.
Member Since: Septiembre 11, 2007 Posts: 126 Comments: 13072
741. StormSurgeon 1:33 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Yes K, that's what I was refering to, but I had not read back. As I said, I've been away for 6 months..........just now starting to look at some sites and catching up. I was hopefully asking for a few to say hello. Wishfull thinking........huh? Hello to you!
Member Since: Septiembre 1, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 1792
743. pottery 1:35 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Greetings from 11N 61W. Very hazy conditions which I assumed was Sahara Dust until I looked at the images this evening. It is not SAL. Visibility down to 6 miles, and the temps have been up to 94 F. The water Vapour maps are showing moisture just south of here, over Guyana and Venezuela. Flying from Tobago to Trinidad this afternoon, at 7000 feet could barely see the sea.
The rains would be very welcomed...........
Member Since: Octubre 24, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 20866
744. pottery 1:36 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Hello StormS
Member Since: Octubre 24, 2005 Posts: 0 Comments: 20866
745. nrtiwlnvragn 1:36 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Quoting Ossqss:
Rookie Question, how accruate are the models?

Just wanderin about the ULL over Mexico when it moves off of land.


I think you are asking about tropical cyclone genesis. Here is a paper comparing the GFS, UKMET and NOGAPS:

AN EVALUATION AND COMPARISON OF PREDICTIONS OF TROPICAL CYCLOGENESIS BY THREE GLOBAL FORECAST MODELS

GFS is best, but also has the most false alarms. All fall off after 72 hours.
Member Since: Septiembre 23, 2005 Posts: 12 Comments: 9095
746. StormSurgeon 1:39 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Hello presslord, Patrap, Michfan, Drak, Taz, haha, K and all! Ready to go?
Member Since: Septiembre 1, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 1792
747. StormSurgeon 1:43 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Quoting pottery:
Hello StormS


StormS and I are two different folks. Were you flying through that crud?
Member Since: Septiembre 1, 2007 Posts: 0 Comments: 1792
748. hahaguy 1:43 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Quoting StormSurgeon:
Hello presslord, Patrap, Michfan, Drak, Taz, haha, K and all! Ready to go?


Locked and loaded. LOL
Member Since: Agosto 12, 2007 Posts: 2 Comments: 2838
749. KoritheMan 1:44 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Quoting StormSurgeon:
Hello presslord, Patrap, Michfan, Drak, Taz, haha, K and all! Ready to go?


Hi. I sure am! Well, as ready as I'll ever be, in any case...

I went through Gustav last year when he came through Louisiana, why not go through another one this year? XD
Member Since: Marzo 7, 2007 Posts: 422 Comments: 15649
750. Ossqss 1:44 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    

Thanks all, interpretation is the key to understanding.

Be well :)

Member Since: Junio 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
751. beell 1:45 AM GMT en Mayo 02, 2009    
Ran across this today while trying to remember the differences between tropical/subtropical systems.

The term "neutercane" was coined by Bob Bundgaard for small subtropical cyclones which formed from mesoscale features. His friend Bob Simpson, director of NHC, adopted the term and began using it in seasonal summaries. However, when he began issuing public statements during the 1972 Atlantic hurricane season with the term 'neutercane', newspapers protested the term was "sexist". Bob White, administrator of NOAA at that time, ordered Simpson to cease use of the term and it fell into disuse.[3]
Link
Member Since: Septiembre 11, 2007 Posts: 126 Comments: 13072

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Jeff co-founded the Weather Underground in 1995 while working on his Ph.D. He flew with the NOAA Hurricane Hunters from 1986-1990.

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